TESTIMONY OF DR. IRA REMSEN

Pages 31-33-Indiana Record.

Q. Well, there was a meeting, wasn't there, of chemists, Doctor, recently, out at Denver, Colo., where a great number of scientific men congregated, wasn't there?

A. There was no doubt about it.

Q. And you had an election out there at which benzoate of soda was the candidate, didn't you?

A. I don't know. I had nothing to do with the election. I wasn't a member of the association. I was present as an interested spectator, but not a member of the association, had no vote.

Q. Now the fact is that of late there has been great interest manifested on both sides of this question by scientific men throughout the country, hasn't there, Doctor?

A. Apparently. I am out of that. I am not at all a part of the excitement.

Q. And were you present when the vote was finally taken at Denver on the question?

A. Which vote do you mean?

Q. On the harmfulness of benzoate of soda, the adoption of the resolution--not vote, but resolution.

A. I was present, yes, sir, the resolution approving the action of the board, the report of the board. They approved.

Q. By what vote?

A. That is too much for me--57 to 42, maybe, I don't remember exactly what it was; in the fifties for one and forties for the other; fifty-odd in favor and forty-odd against; I couldn't remember that, I am sure; I am near the truth.

Q. Now in the talks that you had with the Secretary of Agriculture, did you learn that the plaintiffs, Curtice and Williams, here, were interested in this question?

A. I do not remember that I ever heard them mentioned by the Secretary of Agriculture.

Q. When did you first learn that the plaintiffs were interested in this question, Doctor?

A. In this--you mean in this particular suit?

Q. No, in this question as to whether benzoate of soda was harmful.

A. Oh, I remember. I remember it was at a meeting, a hearing we gave, our Referee Board gave in New York before we began our investigation. We sent word to those who were interested in the general problem, not only those who use benzoate but those who do not use benzoate, informing them that we would like to get such information as possible to aid us in our work. And they were represented by a number of large manufacturing interests who appeared before us to state their problems; mind you, they were not those who use benzoate alone but those who do not use it. We felt that it was only fair to hear what they had to say, representatives of both sides--I regret that there are sides--there are sides, unquestionably, I recognize it. And my recollection is that this is the first that I ever heard of these firms, except so far as I had become familiar with them through labels that everybody has seen.

Q. Well, now, have you met them since that time?

A. Only as--except at Denver I saw these gentlemen, at Denver; saw them in passing. I had very little to say to them--I think they almost accused me of discourtesy.

Q. Did the manufacturers appear out at the Denver convention?

A. These gentlemen were there--I do not remember, I do not know them sufficiently well to say.

Q. Well, when you had this hearing of the Referee Board at which you heard both sides, did Dr. Wiley appear at the hearing?

A. No.

Q. Was he invited?

A. No. It was restricted to those who used benzoate of soda.

Q. I understood you to say that you did not, it was not only--

A. I don't say use--but who either use or do not use it, but who are interested in it from the manufacturing point of view, that is what I meant.

Q. You mean as confined to manufacturers?

A. Oh, yes, wholly.

Q. Now, you also stated that there had been a world of work on the physiological effect of benzoate of soda on the human system.

A. That is a question which has perhaps not been very fully investigated, and yet I recall in this connection an investigation which came to my notice when I was a very young man. I went to Gdttingen in 1868. I carried a letter to a distinguished physiologist who was there, Professor Meissner. He had just completed an elaborate series of experiments of the ffect of benzoic acid on the human organism. Mr. Charles U. Shepard, an American student, took large doses of benzoic acid, much larger than the quantities that have been used in our experiments. Those large quantities left no permanent effects.

Q. Now, so far as you know all these works of the original research upon the effect of benzoic acid or benzoate of soda upon the human system are referred to in that report, in the bibliography.

A. All the important ones.